Mar 28
Guild Wars 2 - Too Soon!
I haven’t read the PC Gamer article yet, thought I’m very much looking forward to it. Just the same, now that I’ve had a chance to listen to Brent (slovenly, huh?) and Shawn, I’ve pretty much made up my mind: while I completely understand why they’re doing this, I think it’s a shame.
In short: I feel this change is a big step away from everything I like about Guild Wars.
Witness the fact that even mainstream media can capture the missed opportunity here. MSNBC has an article on the changeover to GW2, and aside from some groaners (”Guild Wars is probably the most popular massively multiplayer online game you’ve never heard of.”), it captures the title’s personality pretty well. It goes into the history of Arenanet and the game, and then goes into what makes it different from other Massives. It transitions from past to present with this:
But despite this success, “Guild Wars†exists mostly below the radar. Although the company’s games have a passionate fan base, some hardcore gamers sneer that it’s tailored for newbies, and lacks the mechanics of a traditional MMO.
They then go on to talk to a few GW players, who are understandably upset at the pendulum swing back towards traditional massive games. In fact, after hearing all the descriptions of the changes from GW to GW2, the only thing I recognize as core to the game is the lack of a monthly fee. Never-ending levels? Grinding? Bah and double Bah.
I’ll admit Guild Wars doesn’t come up as often as some others in my game rotation, but the fact that it’s NOT just another EQ or WoW or DAoC is what has made it popular. I don’t understand, at all, why Arenanet is moving the game away from everything that has made it stand out from the crowd. It’s almost as if the millions of players and pleased box-purchasers have convinced them that they made the wrong choice. Yes, I understand that they don’t want to re-invent the game every six months. That’s fine … they were the only ones asking them to.
Why not have a schedule of “Campaign/Expansion/Campaign/Expansion”?, and push it more out to like 9 or 10 months? Have a team come up with a new campaign, and then after they’ve pushed one out the door do an expansion follow-up to what they’d just done? Or hell, there are already three settings available: do expansions for each of them before you push on to something completely new.
I specifically want to say that even rumours that they’re considering not having a level cap makes me not want to play the sequel. I’ve long railed against the concept of a game with no ending here on the site. I feel very strongly that even Massive games should have closure. I’ve always pointed out Guild Wars as a great example of this. You hit level 20 and you ascend. You have further adventures with that character, sure, but there’s a sense of an actual plot arc. Contrary to this, my WoW character Groedin is now caught in the never-ending-arc-of-level-cap-raising. There will never be an ‘end’ for his story; Blizzard will release another expansion and the cap will go up. That makes me … not want to play. If there’s no level cap at all, you can look at that never ending mountain, leading off to nowhere and think to yourself “What’s the point?”
Bah all around. I think it’s a darn shame Arenanet is backpedaling on what has made their game so enjoyable to play. I think it’s a shame that these ‘hardcore gamers’ are allowed to sneer at such a quality product. I think it’s a shame that I haven’t played more of the damn game. I can only hope as more details are released (and the PC Gamer article becomes available in a few days), we’ll get a better sense of what they’re aiming for here.
(Also - Thanks to folks who have been discussing this here on the site. 30 comments is a new record!)
16 Comments so far
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Enh. I don’t know how often you played guild wars but i played it a lot. It got repetitive and boring. Their attempts to create a whole new game with each new campaign was a failure, because each campaign was actually pretty similar to the others. What the game needed was more depth, at least for me. Its a fantastic game for casual players, and hardcore pvpers, but not anyone in between.
Are you trying to say guild wars doesn’t have grind? Moving my 7 level 20 characters through each campaign isn’t a grind?
Thats why I’m not against these changes at all. More open world? Good because i’m bored to hell with instances. Higher level cap/Endless level cap? Whichever it turns out to be, it’ll give me more to do in game.
Actually i’m not sure that gw2 will end up being all that different from the original anyway. Arenanet must have some idea of what people liked and didn’t like, what worked and didn’t work. I doubt they’re just going to throw the good stuff out.
Will a high level cap matter when Anet has proven that they’re all about balance in game? And heck, one of the worst things about guild wars was playing with level 20 players who didn’t know what the hell they were doing, although i suppose that happens in every game.
So in general, what are the specific problems you have with the changes? I can understand wanting an end to the game, but I can also understand a move towards open worlds and open ended play. Any veteran of guild wars must be pretty bored with the closed system by now
Oh also, what is it you loved about guild wars? The campaigns? The level 20 cap? The instances? I can’t say i’ll miss these all that much.
I have mixed feelings about the changes in store for GW2. I don’t want GW to become like other MMOGs. I like the fact that GW is different. I like not being in the arms/equipment race of level/loot grinding like what WoW has. On the other hand, I am interested to see what ArenaNet has in store. I’m not optimistic about the unlimited levels. That part kind of puts me off. Then again, I do want to see where the story goes. I’ll just wait and see.
Perhaps I’m the only one who thought this was suspicious, but isn’t it odd they make such a groundbreaking announcement and put it on the cover of PCGamer for the APRIL issue?
I mean… April 1st….hahahaha? Smells a bit fishy if you ask me. I think they let it out too early, but I suppose we’ll all find out after the fool’s day has come and gone.
Seems to me they wouldn’t do this if their current business model was working well for them :)
Well, of course Darniaq. :)
But then, I’m just some guy on a website and don’t have to be held back by such practical considerations.
“FREE PUPPIES TO EVERYONE THAT BUYS A COPY!”
I only said that because I thought it was funny it hadn’t come up in about 41 comments across two articles. Btw, grats on the comment milestone buddy, and great job keeping up the writing :)
I’m actually glad ArenaNet is trying to go more typical MMO. I want to see them break some rules, bring their creativity to a more traditional experience, and keep the overall theme so many like. Easy for me to say though because I found GW1 pretty boring. ;)
I never played WoW, but i like GW because it has a lvl cap and how lots of people play it but they don’t hav commercials for it(if they do i never seen one ever) so how do all these people know about it, they tell their friends about it(GW), or they find it in a store and they say “hmm I never heard of that before, ehhh i’ll give it a try” and they like it. I admit it gets pretty boring, but if a friend talked you into getting it guess what you have someone to talk to. Well why don’t you guys just go to each others houses and talk. Maybe one of you is sick or theres nothing to do and its just one of those boring days, you can get together with your friends and kill something or do a quest. Theres alot of stuff to do you can pvp at random arenas or get some luxon or kurzick faction, AB is fun and u can make a small team with your friends or go to fort aspenwood and get a atomaticly randomly picked team. If you don’t want to do that then get some 15k armour or get farther in the game try soloing theres always something to do. And yes you get tired of playing for the day but everyone does, doesn’t mean its a boring game, just that you played anough and your getting tired. If the whole game put you to sleep return it or just don’t play it anymore, but don’t go and tell evryone its a boring game because thay might have different opinions than you. What does this hav to do with GW2 I don’t know. :P
I’ve read the article and I think it’s a good thing. But that’s coming from someone who wanted to like GW but their interface, instancing, limited and stilted player interactions made me give it up. For me, it’s an avenue of giving this game another look.
WOW’s the game I’ve played the longest and although I’ve wanted to like other games and have tried, nothing has been enough to make me start all over - and pony up for a new subscription. I’d love to like this new version of GW2 and play at least one game w/o a monthly cost. From what I read in the article the changes are just enough to possible cross over players from other games.
I’m a huge fan of Guild Wars, been playing off and on since their E3 public beta days. Aside from the obvious great graphics and soundtrack, I love GW for being different.
There’s a bazillion MMOs with the open world, GW decided on a different approach, one which has its pros and cons, but allows them to not have to make the player choose a server to play on. You never had to call your friends and ask them which server they play on.
I love that GW is not a levels-based game. Every time I see anyone posting about level caps and GW, or pretty much anything to do with levels in GW, I can pretty much assume they’ve completely missed the point altogether. GW has never been about levels. It has a low level cap intentionally: so that you can get to the real content. The only thing “20″ above your head means is that it tells everyone else that you more than likely have enough skills to choose from, etc. that you should be able to survive the real content and be useful in the group. Other than that, your level is completely meaningless, unlike in every other MMO. It’s your attribute points and skill selection that matter. GW is very much like Magic: the Gathering — you have a crapload of cards, but you can only choose so many to build your deck with.
I also love that GW isn’t a gear-based game. Each armor has a max, the only difference is whether you choose to go for the max armor with the even more cool-looking graphics. Each weapon type also has a max damage, and a max bonus capability. Maxing your character is fairly easy, again it comes down to your ability as a player to decide where to put your attribute points and choose skills for maximum benefit. Most other MMOs, such as WoW, you as a player, and as a character are by and large irrelevant. Your gear defines you, the gear is the only way to better yourself, and the gear is the only reason to repeatedly grind dungeon after dungeon, raid after raid (few, if any, of which have any compelling storylines as to their existence, their bosses, and why the hell should your character be there other than you (the player) knows a certain piece of gear has some astronomically low chance of dropping).
Does GW have a more simplified game style? Sure. You walk outside into an instanced environment and kill mobs. Although in WoW, there’s not much else to do other than walk outside into an open world and kill mobs, hoping someone else hasn’t been killing the mobs you need. But wait, you say! I go outside and gather herbs and ores! Yes, but you probably had to kill mobs to get to them. Gathering leather? ‘Nuff said there. MMOs in general haven’t really progressed to the point of finding new things for us to do as players. SWG tried, and was fairly successful in that particular area. Pick your favorite fantasy (since fantasy is the most popular MMO genre) novel. Are the characters doing nothing but walking from one combat encounter to the next? Hardly. In MMOs we’re given precious little else to do (in terms of actually progressing ourselves and any storylines we may be questing on), and that’s a huge shame. Instead it’s usually a matter of an individual player saying “I’m bored, I think I’ll just go out and explore a certain area off the map, or figure out how to get into Hyjall, or…” which doesn’t really offer any progress at all, but we have the choice of doing it “just because.” I’m all for choice, especially that one. But I won’t fault GW for being a bit shallow on the gameplay when they’ve truly done a lot of things right as well. They set out to make a casual online RPG with all the classic trappings of an MMO without all the grind and timesinks. And with those goals in mind, I’d have to say they succeeded.
For GW2 and a “potentially endless” level cap? Well, in any other MMO honestly these days, what does a level mean? Back in the day, if someone reached level cap in EQ, and then WoW after that, those people got respect. “Wow, they put in the time, they got to level cap, they must be awesome, etc.” Fast forward a little while and now everyone’s at level cap, especially in WoW, where most of us have several characters at level cap. GW2 could easily stop the progression at level 20 (or any arbitrary number) like they do now, but keep sticking a new number over your head just for bragging rights so the “levels” crowd has something that, to them, means something. Doesn’t mean you continually get more stats, or anything, just a way of saying “look how long I’ve played,” or “look how much xp I’ve earned.”
that was the smartest thing said in this whole thing..love your idea bout lvls in gw 2
Mike I got to say that I agree with you. I played Wow and didnt make it past the 30 day free trial. FFXI…yeah. Along with many more. The “grinding” you talk about is a concept most people see in different lights, though Im on the same page with you. I dont like running through and having 8 out of 10 quests being “Kill X Enemies”. Mindless drones that walk around an area doing nothing anyways. Many of the quests in Guild Wars are more engaging, and still to this day, I keep GW on my computer. Partly for the no fee of course. But I still enjoy moving solo from zone to zone, fighting enemies that have strategy in their attacks, hide, run, pull others to aid them. If GW2 is going to a persistent world, I dont plan on playing. Maybe its because Ive been playing since the beginning, I dont know. But even if WOW was free, I wouldnt play. Though like you said, if it was campain,expansion, campain, expansion, Id certainly be willing to pay to play. Keep up the good work.
I’m an ex wow, eq player. I love instances because it’s private and you and your friends can complete your quests without farmers and abusive people hindering your progress. Low level caps are great because it’s achievable by everyone. Not having it will start a level race with only a small amount of people feeling superior and a large amount inferior. Level caps are for the greater good and should be as low as possible. And I’m sorry if anyone feels that GW has grid because it’s none compared to other games. I recall when the 15 dex enchant was made available in wow and you had to get faction to buy it, that’s grind. Hell even normal stuff was grind in wow. GW is a breeze and I never had to grid to get to level 20.
I’m still not sure how Arenanet came to the conclusion that non-instanced based areas are better. I sincerely hope they didn’t just listen to the bored crybabies crying on forums. When I get bored I’ll wait for an expansion or play something else. We are not paying a subscription and I don’t think there’s any other games that even compares to GW in what we paid vs hours of entertainment.
So, if you guys from Arenanet read this, please ask your players what they want and don’t just listen to the vocal people. Or at least give us a choice between a private instance or shared. I still wonder how may of these people wanting shared instances has experience playing in that kind of environment.
There’s a lot more where this came from but I’ll just keep it short :)
Heres what i have to say,
i’ve been playing guild wars pretty much since the first year. i sat and watched the first wintersday (my first online festival experience) and felt great after finishing prophecies…but thats pretty much where the originality ended for me. im not saying nightfall or EOTN (i dont have factions) werent great or anything, i loved them, but there was always one thing ultimately giving me an “on, off” relationship with the game.
yes i still play guild wars but in bursts. i play for a few months, then take a break because im bored. i think the reason for this is the lack of interation with other players. sure i have my guild and friends but it feels more like me playing a single player game with online chat/support than a multiplayer game, hontestly i dont think ive done a mission with other players since prophecies which was quite a while ago.
with guild wars 2 i think arenanet plans to change this. they have made a persistant element to the game to bring the multiplayer back, the interaction between players whilst exploring etc etc.
yes there will still be instanced areas which we take part in for storyline purposes which is great but for once we can feel like were in a living, breathing world which i think is what brought people to WoW.
its not that guild wars lacked programming depth, its great visually, there are tons of skills and numerous proffessions/ areas to explore and to have your fun with but what made so many of us get bored is that it “felt” like there was no one to enjoy them with! i think arenanet has done the right thing here in making a persistant side to guild wars. i dont think theyve just gone and satisfied the vocal haters (warcrack addicts?) but made a step foreward. arenanet has already told us that everything we loved in GW is still here, its just been made more envolving.
heres a way to explain how things will work (i cant remembe where i heard this but here it is)
so your exploring and you come across a bridge with a dragon flying overhead, you can either fend off the dragon or let it ravage the bridge. if you tackle the threat successfully you’ll be rewarded at the neighbouring village (gold, exp w/e). if not then the bridge breaks and has to be repaired so until then your short one bridge and no one gets across untill its fixed. meanwhile when the repairmen come to fix it, some bandits take the opportunity to loot the builders, heres your chance to play your part again.
this idea really excites me because it allows me and other travelers to actually use your skills and experience as a player to make an impact on the whole world.
while im sure there will be mob campers and the like trying to worm their way into guild wars 2 (the reason WoW and other persistant worlds suck) im also sure Arenanet will find a way around that. remember, its not meant to be a wow clone or an answer to MMORPG players, this is the same team which brought us the game we know and love.
as for “losing guild wars 1″ forget it, arenanet has already stated that they’re keeping the original guild wars up and running so long as there are people to play it so please dont go complaining that guild wars is “going too soon”, it isnt going anywhere.
:) hope the information between all this opinion was helpful to you guys!
Well, i am really psyched about this new game. If you like the original Guild Wars better, thats cool, you can still play it. It’s not like they are just completely forgetting about it.
I have GW2 and its amazing!
GW2 isn’t even out…. it comes out late 2008. You are probably talking about Guild Wars : Factions…. and that is not GW2. Factions and Nightfall are just seperate campains and Eye of the North is an Expansion. They are different games. They just are off the same game. GW2 is a whole seperate game. It will have a higher level cap and you will be able to jump, slide, and other things. I seriously can’t wait for GW2 to come out because it will probably be better than WOW….but that is my guess because i played GW for over 2 years. I am currently playing WOW and it really isn’t all that fun. GW2 will be the best game out there in my mind.