Comments on: Things Aren’t Simple

By: Shut Up We Podcastin' at MMOG Nation

Shut Up We Podcastin' at MMOG Nation — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 03:19:14 +0000

[...] I’m in the most recent episode of Shut Up We’re Talking (episode 17). We mutter about the whole recent cheating discussion, as well as preview stuff for 2008. Plus there’s a Back to the Future quote at the start. [...]

By: Shut Up We’re Talking #17 « The Ancient Gaming Noob

Shut Up We’re Talking #17 « The Ancient Gaming Noob — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:57:46 +0000

[...] Cheating – What was it, what is it, what will it be – we scratch the surface and reference Raph, Michael, Tachevert, and Darren in a topic so vast, you need an IMAX theater to appreciate just the [...]

By: Kendricke

Kendricke — Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:02:19 +0000

Raph beat me to it, as the first thing I thought of when I read the “everyone has access to…prima guides…” line was “everyone who pays for access has access to the prima guides”.

It’s not as if prima guides are free. I can’t just waltz into Gamestop or BestBuy and say “hey, thanks for the free guide” and walk out. I pay for that information. You want the best information from most fansites? You pay for that, too. …and oh yeah, you can also pay for gold, plat, powerlevelling, etc. (Everyone has access to that, too).

Are all of these types of cheating equal in reprehensibility? Though certainly that’s a subjective matter of perspective, I’d argue that the implicit consensus would be that not all cheats are equal. Some are certainly more technical than others, and many others would probably not be seen as evil as others might be.

Which brings the discussion back round to one of Raph’s original points: “spirit of the rules”.

If we try (as Darren did) to hyperanalyze what is and is not “cheating”, we’re going to find that a great many actions most of us don’t consider to be strictly bad are going to fall under any such technical definition. I think this is why Raph intentionally built in some wiggle room into his own definition, which is a definition I think most designers agree with.

Indeed, I think so often that designers fall prey to the “I’ll know it when I see it” definitions of cheating, that when players call them on perceived ethical violations, many developers may be taken off-guard in the process. Either the developers in question knew they were cheating and just counted on not being caught…or they just didn’t perceive the actions they took in the same light.

By: ceadrick

ceadrick — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 23:56:52 +0000

Just my 2 coppers,
Anything used outside of the game to advance, gain levels, solve puzzels, finish quests, etc. is cheating. Using these outside sources speeds up game play, which for most of us is a good thing. But, I don’t think the game designers plan for that. I think they want you to take the time to figure it out on your own. When people cheat they speed through the content faster then was intended. Then they complain that they are bored. They leave the game and find something new and start all over again. I’m guilty of this. Wouldnt it be better to play and enjoy the game in the way the designer meant it to be played? I know the answer already,,, I don’t have the time.

By: Matt K

Matt K — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 23:51:47 +0000

I will definitely agree that the use of game guides is cheating. However, I will grant that it is a form of cheating that MMOs thoroughly encourage given their game design. Unless you’re some sort of chart-making, anal-retentive, geek-savant (I direct you to the Flood Season chapter of Mr. Zenke’s Shackled City campaign wiki), there’s just too much information in the typical MMO to reasonably keep track of, even if just taken as it’s parceled out to you. Even worse, the character building design in most MMOs (Guild Wars being a notable exception) is not even remotely forgiving to experimental build choices. Don’t like how your Talents are specced out? That’ll be a dragon’s trove worth of Gold to retrain, please. That sort of design decision practically begs even the most figure-it-out-for-yourself-minded player to do some outside research before leveling up.

To (cringingly) echo a self-professed gold-purchaser, yes, it’s cheating, but it’s not worth my time not to. I wouldn’t look things up on-line if the game design didn’t punish a lack of prescience in character building.

By: The Common Sense Gamer Â» More on cheating

The Common Sense Gamer Â» More on cheating — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 23:23:29 +0000

[...] here and [...]

By: darrenl

darrenl — Fri, 28 Dec 2007 23:00:34 +0000

“The world is an overly-complicated place”

…indeed good sir.

Oh, and just to clarify that I did have to concede his point about cheating when it comes to adventure games.

hmmm..I’m going to be stewing on this one for a while I think.